Where have the cgi gone?

[Paul L. Allen]

Marc Powell writes: 

> And this user, who is setting up nagios for the first time,

Who is supposedly a *nix admin (because he needs root to install nagios)
who works for what is either an ISP or the IT department of a company
with many machines that need to be monitored (or else he has no reason
to install it in the first place).  He OUGHT to be clueful about *nix or
he shouldn't be messing around with root privileges or working for
an ISP or IT department with many machines. 

> is supposed to go through every possible menu option and link for the 
> cgi's that do work and discover the thing that they all don't do??

Guess what I did when I installed Nagios and added a few hosts and
services to test it?  That's right.  I went through EVERYTHING, playing
with it, familiarizing myself with it, spotting services that were
showing up as critical and working out why. 

I went through the lot.  And if I'd found that some of them hadn't
worked I'd have noted which ones (as he did).  Unlike him, I'd have
tried to figure out why before asking silly questions here. 

> How are they supposed to know that none of the cgi's that do work don't 
> generate images 3 levels in?

Ah, the highly plausible "page not found that suddenly becomes findable
if you go deep enough by clicking several times on the link on the
page that could not be found" theory.  Yes, right.  When you can't
find your car because it has been stolen, if you get into your non-existent
car and floor the gas pedal three times, you'll find your car.  Guaranteed. 

> Again, not everyone is as experienced as you apparently are, especially
> on a mailling list intended _specifically_ for providing just the
> kind of help this person was asking for.

No, it is intended to help CLUEFUL people who put in some effort on
their own to figure out what the problem is.  Since I read newest mail
first, I hadn't seen this moron's other posts.  Just look at what you're
trying to defend. 

His first problem is that some CGIs throw up "not found" errors in his
browser.  He could have read the docs, he could have looked at the
FAQ, he could have searched google, instead he asked the
animated paperclip (the one that doesn't mind how many hours a day
people spend asking it stupid questions and which he believes inhabits
this list). 

Well, the animated paperclip didn't respond quickly enough.  So either
he decided to actually try thinking about it or, more likely, a co-worker
gave him a hint.  So he looked in the apache error logs and found
"could not stat /usr/local/nagios/sbin/statusmap.cgi" which he DID NOT
UNDERSTAND.  Remember, this is supposedly a *nix admin, and he has no
idea what this means.  So again he turns to the animated paperclip. 

Again, the animated paperclip does not respond quickly enough.  A little,
dim light-bulb appears over his head.  That looks like a *nix filesystem
path, he thinks.  One that looks similar to /usr/local/nagios/etc where he
now remembers having edited config files.  What if he actually LOOKS IN
THAT DIRECTORY?  Wow!  The files are missing!  Time to ask the animated
paperclip again.  Maybe a dog ate them or UFO aliens abducted them or
something.  After all, if you have no clue whatsoever about being a *nix
admin, anything might happen. 

So, rather than READ THE DOCUMENTATION, or LOOK IN THE FAQS, or SEARCH
GOOGLE, or REBUILD AND LOOK FOR ERROR MESSAGES, or READ THE SOURCE, like
any competent *nix admin would do, he asks the animated paperclip yet
again.  Any halfway competent *nix admin would have figured out the CGIs
were missing without having to ask the list. 

Your argument that he is new to Nagios does not hold water.  I was new
to Nagios when I installed it.  Nagios is a tool spefically for use
by ISPs and IT departments.  Anyone even thinking about installing it
should already be a semi-competent *nix admin or shouldn't be working
for such a company in the first place. 

> Regardless of what you might think, the answers provided on this list
> are a direct reflection of the kind of support an end-user can expect
> when adopting Nagios, of Nagios itself and of *nix in general.

Correct.  If you are installing Nagios on a *nix machine then you
really ought to have at least some clue about *nix in the first place
or you shouldn't be messing around as root.  If you have a NEED to
install Nagios then you really ought to have significantly more clues
than the average home user of Windows who only uses it to play games and
surf for porn. 

As for *nix in general and mailing lists/support lists, I suggest you take
a long read of <URL: http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html >.
And then try to remember that the average home user of Windows is not
going to try installing Nagios on a *nix box.  A person with an actual
need to instal Nagios ought to be significantly more clued than this
guy was, and have some idea about asking questions on lists sensibly,
even if they don't know who ESR is. 

> If I had consistently seen those kinds of responses when I started
> using Netsaint several years ago I would have seriously reconsidered.

Some people post here and show that they have put in an effort to find
the answer themselves before asking on the list.  They understand that
the people on this list are giving them what is in effect free tech
support and that they should not appear to be leaches who can't do their
job properly and want somebody else to do it for them for free.  I've
asked questions here, but only after I've exhausted other avenues.  And
when I ask questions here I explain what I've done to try to figure out
the answer for myself to prove that I'm not leaching and taking the
easy way out. 

> It baffles me how someone with a .sig of 'Softflare Support' doesn't 
> understand these kinds of things.

The support you get from Softflare comes at a price - you PAY for it.
If you're paying for my time (either as an isolated call or because
you have a support contract) then you can ask all the stupid questions
you want and I will be pleasant and courteous (even if I think you're a
complete moron).  If this guy wants to pay Softflare to install and
configure Nagios for him we will be more than happy to do so and I will
guarantee that whichever of us installs and configures it for him will
not call him a moron. 

>>>> That one doesn't generate graphs.  But it does generate a status
>>>> map, which is a graphic that is created on-the-fly.
> 
> How would they know? They can't run it.

They can read the docs, which contain screenshots.  They can visit the
test site.  I did both of those things before deciding to install
Nagios because there was no point wasting my time installing it if
either the docs or the test site showed it had serious shortcomings.
Reading the docs would be necessary if I installed it, so reading the
docs first could save time if it is clear from the docs that it does
not meet my requirements.  No sane person would install it first, then
read the docs, then decide from reading the docs that it was no good
for their needs, unless installing it was the ONLY way to get at the
docs. 

> Again, you presume that the user fully understands what's going on. As
> far as they know it could be generated with VRML, NetPBM, ImageMagick
> or sprites even.

It could use any image manipulation utility.  The point I made was that
HAD to use AN image manipalation utility because those images had to
be created ON THE FLY.  I used those words many times in my first post
to this thread, but I never mentioned the name of a particular image
manipulation utility or library.  I wanted him to go digging for himself
to find out that he needed gdlib. 

The point being, as I stated originally, that it was patently obvious to
anyone who had read the docs about what things did (whether before or after
finding out that some of the links didn't work) and who had put in a
minimal amount of THOUGHT, that the three failing CGIs had a property in
common not shared by the other CGIs. 

> And don't rebutt that those aren't mentioned in the requirements
> document. It's already been established that they didn't read or 
> understand the meaning of the GD libs or their function.

You make my point for me.  Rather than read the docs, look at the FAQs
(it was you, I believe, who said his problem is covered in a couple
of the FAQs), do a google search or any of the other things that should
be instinctive to a *nix admin (no matter what package he or she is
installing), he came straight to the list.  Again and again, with a
slow-drip water torture of questions showing that he is capable of
learning, but not much faster than a snail doped up on Xanax. 

> Yes, it was very clear that was what you meant. Oh, wait, I have to go
> to my second job at the Psychic Friends Network... Yes, in a perfect
> world those are all things that should have been done, but it's not a
> perfect world, he didn't and this _is_ a support list.

It is NOT a support list.  A support list is staffed by professionals
who give you complete and courteous answers because you PAY them to do
so.  This is a self-help list where people help themselves and others.
One important part of self-help is actually getting involved yourself
rather than expecting everyone else to do it for you. 

> To answer basically 'RTFM' without giving a specific suggestion of 
> where to look or what to look for is useless,

Only to the sort of clueless person who should not be installing Nagios
anyway.  If you don't know enough to read the documentation, FAQs, etc.
when things go wrong then you really should not have the root password.
Even so, I reminded him of the docs and gave him a very strong clue
about what sort of thing he should be looking for in the docs.  If he
has any potential at all, the next time he will mention what he has
done in order to try to solve the problem himself. 

> especially with the significant (in a positive light) amounts of FM to R 
> for Nagios.

There is a lot of manual and it could probably be re-organized for the
better.  But I've seen far worse.  In any case, his problem was not
using it but installing it (and the docs are very hand-holding in
that respect compared to stuff like RT).  In the end, a *nix admin
installing a package to do geeky ISP-like things ought to have some
clue about where to look for answers BEFORE resorting to a list.  Even
an "I looked through the docs but couldn't see anything obvious" would
have shown he at least made the effort. 

> Again, that's your experience talking. Not everyone has that experience.
> Years ago you could have gotten away with expecting that, but with the
> golden age of linux upon us that can not be expected any more. More and
> more people are using linux which is great, but at the same time, those
> people are inexperienced and don't know all the possible things to look
> for.

Specious argument.  Sure, people are using Linux on the desktop without
really knowing much about installing anything that isn't in an RPM, or
knowing about networking in general.  But those people have no reason to
monitor network services and the health of network servers. 

Your argument would apply if this was some home-use application
package like a game.  Your argument would apply if this was some
business package  which was not IT-related, like an accounting package,
or a payroll package, or a spreadsheet.  Then you might reasonably expect
a home-user, point-and-click, level of knowledge and stupid questions. 

THIS IS A PACKAGE FOR NETWORK ADMINS MONITORING NETWORK SERVICES AND
SERVERS.  They are to be expected to know a little more about things
than ordinary home users playing with Linux as a desktop machine.  It
is NOT unreasonable to expect such a person to understand something
about webservers, for instance, or at least to have a cow-orker that
does.  It is NOT unreasonable to expect such a person to at least think
about looking at the documentation if things don't work.  It is NOT
unreasonable to expect such a person to think of looking for an FAQ
(just about every commercial website I look at has an FAQ and even
home users know what one is).  It is NOT unreasonable to expect such
a person to do a google search (even some home users know about
google - in fact most of them do). 

> But it is rocket science

Standard *nix installation procedures should not be rocket science to
anyone who has any need to actually install it. 

> and these people are not all *nix admins. Some people are playing with 
> linux to see what they can do with it,

You've lost the plot.  "Here I am, sat at home, playing with Linux to
see what I can do with it.  What can I try?  I know, I'll try installing
a package to monitor network services and servers and alert me if any
of them fail, even though I don't actually have anything to monitor and
have no intention of ever applying for a job with an ISP."  Do try and
remember who is going to want to install Nagios and why. 

> I'm going to bet that it's a rare person who is experienced in linux
> today who didn't have a mentor to help them with these very types of 
> things.

I got dumped in at the deep-end several years ago, when I joined the
world's most clueless company (now, thankfully, defunct) and had to
build a replacement Linux server for the semi-broken one their previous
techy had built many years ago.  This was before all the sophisticated
auto-install that worked smoothly but after the "grab the kernel sources,
and boot-strap it from scratch" releases had gone away.  No help on
installing or configuring new packages except what I could find in the
docs.  It was all new and strange to me, but I had problem-solving
skills... 

Basically, to be a *nix admin or a techy at an ISP or in IT support
you need PROBLEM-SOLVING SKILLS that go beyond trying to get free
tech support by asking questions on a mailing list and hoping somebody
will take pity on you and give you answers so you don't have to do
any of that horrible LEARNING stuff. 

> Like it or not, this is a support list

I have already pointed out that you are wrong.  The reply address is
not nagios-support at lists.sourceforge.net but nagios-users at ... 

> and we _are_ paperclips.

You are perfectly entitled to give unpaid support for free, if you are
masochistic enough.  Since this is a self-help list, I will continue to
help people even if that involves first teaching them that they have to
show they have tried to do some of the work for themselves before they
can expect much help from most of us. 

> I would much rather someone go away with an un-answered question
> than the admitted condescending response you gave.

Feel free to plonk me, then you will not have to read my responses.  I
would prefer that people learn they have to learn.  Give a man a fish
and you feed him for a day; teach him how to fish and you feed him
for life.  You want to keep doling out the fish, I want to tell people
about fishing rods (except when it comes to paid support, then I would
prefer them to keep buying fish). 

> It serves no one.

Actually, it might have taught the guy to try thinking for himself for
a little before asking questions that anybody with a real need to
install Nagios ought to be capable of answering for himself anyway. 

> I expect an end user to have a basic grasp of those subjects but I do
> not expect that they fully understand all the intracacies of a software
> package that they are installing for the first time.

I don't expect anyone to fully understand software they are installing
for the first time.  I DO expect somebody who ought to be a fairly
experienced *nix admin installing software that is only of use to
experienced *nix admins to have some minimal knowledge of *nix.  I
don't expect the petrol pump attendant to know where the filler cap is
on a car he's never seen before, but I do expect him not to just pump
petrol through the open sun roof because he doesn't know where the
filler cap is.  YMMV... 

> And how exactly did you give this person help or an opportunity to learn
> from this help?

I aided him by pointing out that the answer was within his means to find
out for himself without any help from anyone else other than knowing the
answer was in the documentation and that he was missing a library needed
to create images on the fly.  Unless you think he was too stupid to
figure that out from what I wrote, in which case he is probably too
stupid to own a computer. 

> Your response in a nutshell was 'You're an idiot. I know
> exactly what your problem is but you've got to re-read all the 65 pages
> of documentation, then the 118 FAQ's, then the README, CHANGELOG and
> INSTALLING documents.

He doesn't have to read ALL of them unless he's unlucky.  Statisically,
he only has to read half of them.  If he can figure out how to use
the contents page in the docs to find the FAQs quickly, and can figure
out how to use the FAQ contents to find the right FAQs quickly, he might
get an answer in under 15 minutes.  If he really is an idiot then he
really will have to read the whole lot because he won't recognize the
answer even when he sees it.  Since you believe he will have to read all
of the documentation, FAQs, readmes, etc., then your opinion of him
is very low. 

> Even though I could point you to exactly what you should read to learn
> how to solve your problem

You've lost the plot again.  I told him EXACTLY what he needed to
learn to solve his problem.  He needed to learn how to approach
*nix admin problems as a REAL *nix admin would by getting some
problem-solving skills.  Of course, he had to solve a minor problem
just to figure out what he needed to learn, but if that's beyond him
then there is no hope for him (and it was part of the lesson). 

> Normally, I would have ignored an RTFM response but you took it to the 
> next level, treating this person like a 5 year old child right off the 
> bat.

Yes, I made a mistake there because I hadn't read his earlier posts.  Had
I read those first, I would have treated him like a 3-year-old. 

> If you don't like your role as a Nagios support representative,

Is the weather nice on your planet?  Nobody here is a Nagios support
representative.  There are Nagios users of varying degrees of
cluefulness and occasionally Nagios developers.  None of them is paid
to give support to anyone or represents anyone but themselves (I'd
file off my standard work sig, but I can't be bothered). 

> either don't participate or only respond to questions that are of a 
> sufficient caliber to engage your intellect. 

I'll make you a deal (whether you accept it or not, I will honour my
part of it).  You get to control which messages you read, which messages
you respond to, and what you write in your responses; I get to control
which messages I read, which messages I respond to, and what I write
in my responses.  You get the option to not read what I write, you do
not get the option to tell me what I may or may not write.  I get the
option to not read what you write, I do not get the option to tell you
what you may or may not write.  There is a special legal term for this
kind of deal: it's known as "reality." 

> All that just so you didn't have to say "You need GD. Look in the FAQ".

Either he is a real *nix admin with a real need for Nagios for *nix
admin type purposes, in which case he needs to learn how to go about
figuring things out for himself and to learn a LOT more about *nix,
or he is not, in which case he is wasting his time and ours installing
something he will never actually use. 

This is not an "I am new to Linux and need help" list, this is supposedly
an "I am a real *nix admin and want to do seriously geeky things because
I work for an ISP" list.  I expect a *nix admin to know what
"could not stat /usr/local/nagios/sbin/statusmap.cgi" means or at least
to be able to figure it out without first seeing if the animated paperclip
has an answer.  I expect somebody thrown in at the deep end to at least
offer an apology for not really knowing what he's doing. 

-- 
Paul Allen
Softflare Support 



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